House of Representatives
1870 Jun 21	Tuesday

Vaccination Bill

Mr FOX, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said
it was a measure to amend an Act passed in 1858. Last
session there was a similar Bill brought before the House,
but it did not become law. Fortunately the disease of
Smallpox had not made much progress in this Colony up
to the present time and the cases of persons afflicted
with it had not been of frequent occurrence. 

About two years ago, it would be remembered, the disease 
appeared, although not in a severe form, and two deaths 
- one at least - had resulted from it. It would be in the
recollection of honourable members - certainly within the
recollection of every one who read the records of that
period, - that in the old country small-pox was at one
time, perhaps, one of the most frightful scourges that
ever afflicted humanity; it devastated large portions of
the human race, resulting in death to a very great extent,
loss of eyesight, and great disfiguration of the most
beautiful and handsome persons of the race. 

He need not inform the Speaker, as he was a member of the 
curative profession, and descended from a family which had 
earned the highest honours in the old country in that 
profession, - he need not remind him of the early history 
of that frightful and fatal disease, nor perhaps was it 
necessary to point out to honourable members of that House 
the broad distinction between inoculation and vaccination.

Inoculation, as honourable members were aware, was the
implanting of the disease, from diseased subject, in its
most obnoxious form, into a person who was in perfect
health, the person who was so affected being gradually
prepared by being placed in the hands of a doctor, and
every precaution taken. In such cases the disease generally
developed itself in a milder form. It was one of that class
of diseases that when once it was in the constitution it
seldom returned again to the same person, so that every
precautionary measure should be taken to invite the disease
under favourable circumstance, to make its inroad on the
constitution safer, and in order that it might be met at
the most fitting time with the proper remedies. 

It had, however, been found that though inoculation 
lessened the sufferings of individuals, and although they 
were less liable to suffer again from the disease, it 
became in the case of every individual a new focus from 
which the disease spread over a wider range and inflicted 
suffering upon a greater number of persons than had suffered 
from it before.

According to the statistics taken at the period referred to,
it had been shown that, before inoculation had been
introduced, there had been seventy serious outbreaks of
small-pox within a given time, and after inoculation the
number within the same given time had been nearly 100,
thus proving that inoculation tended to spread the disease
to a greater extent. 

It was seventy years this very year, he believed, since the 
well-known Dr JENNER made that wonderful discovery which had 
rendered and would render his name famous to the latest period 
of posterity. He was, at the time, an apprentice to a country 
surgeon in the neighbourhood of Bristol. The cattle disease at 
that time, and for many years previously, had periodically 
carried off in England large numbers of cattle. The disease had
been raging for a number of years in the place where he
lived, and he had heard a common tradition among milk-maids,
that those who handled the teats of the cow infected with
disease were not liable to take the human disease. This
caused Dr JENNER to give the subject his serious investigation,
which afterwards resulted in the splendid discovery he made.

He was afterwards apprenticed to perhaps one of the most
eminent of that band of pathological philosophers which
Scotland had given to England - John HUNTER. It is a
remarkable fact that when JENNER suggested the theory of
vaccination to that most distinguised surgeon, it was
actually met by him with the utmost contempt; it was
pooh-poohed by him. The opposition raised against the
discovery only made Dr JENNER more persevering, and the
result was that he established the fact that the same
disease existed in the cow, and that by taking it from the
cow and introducing it into the human frame, the disease
assumed the mildest form: it became to a great extent a
preventative of the disease of small-pox. Although it did
not altogether prevent the existence of small-pox, or
prevent the human frame from being affected by it, deaths
from small-pox had almost ceased, and the disease itself
had been almost abolished. 

Notwithstanding the immense advantages which had been shown 
and been recognized in every place to flow from this discovery 
of Dr JENNER, the people of Great Britain had never shown that 
earnestness in the matter which might have insured the entire 
suppression of the disease. For a great many years the Government 
would not do anything in the matter. After the lapse of some
time, in 1814, an Act was passed for encouraging vaccination
in the country, but the operation of that Act was almost
a nullity, not one-half of the population were vaccinated.

In 1853 Lord Lyttelton's Act was passed, by which vaccination
was made compulsory in England, but the compulsory machinery
of that Act was not carried out, and the Act proved to a great
extent a failure.

It was a proved fact in the history of the disease that a
greater number of deaths occurred in every one thousand
persons where vaccination was voluntary than where it was
compulsory. In Great Britain, where it was voluntary, the
statistics stood thus, that out of one thousand deaths, those
resulting from small-pox were in London, 16; Birmingham, 16;
Leeds, 17; England and Wales, 21; Perth, 25; Paisley, 18;
Edinburgh 19; Glasgow, 36; Galway, 35; Limerick, 41; Dublin, 25;
Connaught, 63; all Ireland, 49; whereas on the continent of
Europe, where the disease would probably be more contagious
than in the old country, the compulsory system was stringently
followed out, and vaccination had become almost universal.

There the proportion of deaths from small-pox out of every
thousand deaths that occurred was, in Westphalia, 6; Saxony, 8;
Rhenish Provinces, 3; Pomerania, 5; Bohemia, 2; Lombardy, 2;
Vienna, 2.2; Sweden, 2.7; Bavaria, 4. This proved beyond all
doubt the advantages of the compulsory system of vaccination,
and of treating the disease in somewhat the same manner as the
cattle disease had been dealth with and trodden out in England.
It proved that such measures could be taken as would almost
entirely tread out that frightful and obnoxious disease.

There had been but little of the disease in this country as yet,
but there was no reason why it might not appear among the people.
They had so far escaped the more frightful disease of the old
country, but they should take advantage of their present position,
and, by legislative measures, endeavour to prevent the spread
of the calamities that might arise out of its future advent.

The Bill of which he had the honor to move the second reading
provided much more fully than the Act already in force for the
compulsory vaccination of the people of New Zealand.

It provided for vaccination both by Public officers to be
appointed by the Government - for which sufficient provision
could be made in every part of the Colony, - and also what
was ommitted in the previous Act, for vaccination by private
medical men, but under such requirements as would make such
vaccination almost as much a matter of certainty as if the
vaccination were performed by an officer appointed under the
Act.

He had no doubt that honorable members were better acquainted
with the details of the subject than he could possibly be would
be able to contribute greatly to the improvement of the Bill as
it passed through Committee. He could only explain the basis on
which it rested, leaving the details of the measure to be dealt
with by the House. He believed that it would be a considerable
improvement to the legislation of the country.

He was aware that some honorable members might have their minds
affected on this subject by controversies which had taken place
in the North. He believed that in some portions of the northern
press a controversy had been - he would not say raging - but
carried on with some degree of vigour on the subject of
vaccination, and it might have some effect on the minds of
honorable members from that part of the Colony, where some
persons seemed to be of opinion that vaccination under Government
regulations was not only not desirable but might be dangerous.

In reply to that view he would only repeat the statement made by
Sir Archibald ALISON, that "the man who would deny the truth of
the propositions of Euclid."

Mr R. G. WOOD said that, before the Bill was read a second time,
he wished to make a few remarks upon it. The honorable member
who introduced the Bill had made some allusion to the controversy
which he would not say was raging in Auckland upon this subject;
but he (Mr WOOD) wished to draw attention of the Government to
what he believed would be admitted to be a considerable omission
in the principle of the Bill. He agreed with his honorable friend
that it was of vital importance to the country that there should
be a compulsory system of vaccination, because he believed with
him that all the facts went to prove most distinctly that by such
a system alone could that dreadful disease small-pox be stamped
out.

There were very few subjects upon which doctors did not differ,
and this happened to be one. There was a theory, which was fast
gaining ground, that if the only system of vaccination to be
allowed was that from arm to arm, it might be the means of
introducing a worse disease than that which it was proposed to
stamp out. In the part of the Colony from which he came, so
strong was the feeling on this subject that he was perfectly
certain, unless some alteration was made by the Government in
this measure, it would be, if not impossible, at least
impracticable to carry it into effect.

The Government could not introduce a measure and enforce it
against a strong and general feeling on the part of the people;
and in that part of the country to which he alluded the feeling
was so strong and so general, that all the penalties which might
be imposed by this measure would not have the effect of compelling
parents to bring their children to be vaccinated.

He thought his honorable friend would agree with him on this
point, that if vaccination was made compulsory, it would be they
duty of the Government to supply pure lymph. That was a proposition
that it was impossible for anyone to dispute.

For the Government to introduce a measure of this kind, and to
leave out of sight the necessity for making provision for
obtaining a supply of pure lymph, was an omission of so important
a character that his honorable friend himself could not fail to
see it. He should not oppose the second reading of the Bill, and
if his honorable friend would, in his reply, state that he had no
objection to introduce a clause into the Bill to provide that the
vaccination shall be made with pure lymph other than that obtainable
from the arms of children, he would be induced to support the
measure, but if not, he should oppose it.

Mr BUNNY thought the Bill should be referred to a Select Committee,
so that they might bring it forward in a shape which would make it
generally acceptable to the people. If they looked at the practical
working of the Bill in its present shape they would see that the
parent was required, within six months from birth, to bring the
child to be vaccinated. It was very clear from clause 9 that the
child must be taken to a public vaccinator, by whom the operation
must be performed. 

Now, if they took a large district where there were but few medical 
men, the probability was that there would be only one medical man 
who would be appointed public vaccinator, and the people would have
to travel long distances to take their children to him, and there
might be no other medical man in the district. It was no good to
say they would take a portion of the district and make it subject to
the Act, and leave the other portion free from its operation.

The people would have to bring their children in all weathers to
the public vaccinator, and on the same day in the next week they
would have to go through the same ceremony to show the children
to the vaccinator, in order that he might see whether the operation
had taken effect. The Bill required that the child should be shown
to a public vaccinator.

He thought, if the Bill were passed in its present shape, it would
be a perfectly dead letter throughout the Colony. The people would
not submit to a measure of that kind being passed, which would
compel them to subject their children to exposure and long journeys,
and on the following week to take them down again to see if the
vaccination had taken effect.

If the Bill were referred to a Select Committee, its provisions
could be well considered, and it might be brought in again in a
shape that would be acceptable to the people, and under which they
would be quite willing to act and carry it into effect.

He trusted that the Government would see the necessity of allowing
the Bill to be referred to a Select Committee, because, if the Bill
were passed in its present form, the people would prefer to submit
to the penalty of forty shillings rather than expose their children
in the manner contemplated by the Bill.

Mr CARLETON felt obliged to the honorable member at the head of the
Government for the history that he had given them of Dr JENNER's
great discovery, which of course was new to every other member in
the House; but he should have been glad if the honorable member had
given them a little information as to the practical working of the
Bill before the House. Of course he should vote for the second
reading of the Bill under any circumstances. The principle of the
Bill, which was the true question before the House on the second
reading, could not be opposed, but unless certain amendments were
made in Committee, he should reserve his right to vote against it
on the third reading. 

He was not about to enter into the medical question as to whether 
there was danger or not in what had been already termed by the 
honorable member for Parnell the arm-to-arm system of vaccination. 
He (Mr CHARLETON) was not competent to argue the medical question, 
but it sufficed for him that there was sufficient authority on the 
dangerous side of the question to afford ground for apprehension to 
the parents.

He did not mean to say they ought to take cognizance of any
apprehensions which might be without reason entertained - such,
for instance, as the apprehension which was entertained in Dr
JENNER's time, that cows' horns would grow out of the head of the
child after being vaccinated with lymph from the cow, but he did
maintain this, that there was sufficient medical authority for
grave apprehensions in regard to the propagation of one of the
worst forms of disease.

Now, he said that the State had no right to enforce compliance
with the terms of the law so long as there should be any reasonable
grounds for apprehension on that score, and that the Government,
as had been already observed, were bound to make provision to
secure a supply of pure lymph direct from the cow. It was only a
question of expense, and the money could be found. There was no 
other hindrance but that to prevent their obtaining a supply of 
pure lymph, and thereby relieving the minds of parents from all 
apprehension whatever.

But there was likewise another difficulty in the Bill, which he
trusted would be removed in Committee, and which again was only
a question of expense. The Bill, as he read it, might perhaps
work very well in thickly populated districts, - it might work
in the towns but not in the country districts.

The last Act was found to be inefficient in the out-districts,
and so also would this Bill. In the out-districts the provisions
of the late Act could not always be complied with and he saw no
provision in the present Bill for getting rid of the difficulty.

It was impossible that all the children could be brought to the
vaccinator. He saw only one remedy, and it was this - that
instead of the children being brought to the vaccinator, the
vaccinator should go to the children. They would have to pay
for that; but the present salaries were so miserably insufficient
that the duty was often not performed at all.

Those two points required the serious attention of the Government
in Committee, and he had no doubt they would see them in the same
light he did; but even if the Government should decline to take
notice of them in Committee, he still felt it his duty to vote
for the second reading of the Bill, and he did so for this reason,
that if the Government did neglect their duty in Committee it
was quite competent for other members to take steps to bring the
Bill into a more practicable shape.

Mr TRAVERS should give the fullest support to the Bill in all
its stages, because he could conceive no duty more imperative
upon the State than that of adopting measures to prevent the
spread of such a disease as small-pox amongst the population;
and although he did not think that the Bill, in its present
form, made a complete provision for that purpose, its details
might be amended in Committee. He thought some provision should
be made for securing a supply of pure lymph in the various
districts of the Colony.

The most important principle of the Bill was that which rendered
vaccination compulsory among all classes of the community. He
thought it would be necessary to appoint inspectors as well as
vaccinators, giving a number of districts to each inspector to
see that the provisions of the Act were carried out.

With regard to the alleged dangers arising from vaccination, it
was a foolish apprehension on the part of some people. If they
would only take the trouble to consult the report presented to
the House of Commons in 1867, they would see how little foundation
there was for any such fear as that suggested.

The whole question was then under the consideration of the most
eminent medical men in England, and upon their report a Bill was
introduced into the British Parliament and passed, of which the
Bill before the House was in great measure a transcript.

One of the great difficulties in dealing with questions of this
kind was the general ignorance of the public on the subject, but
he did not think that the House was bound to consider what prejudices
the people might entertain in relation to such matters. They had
a duty to perform, - to consider a question which seriously affected
the public health.

But there was one vice in the Bill before the House - the vice
of mixing up provincial with general questions. He regretted to
see it introduced in a measure which he looked upon as a measure
essentially for the Colony at large.

He saw by the Bill that it was left to the Superintendents and
Provincial Councils of the several Provinces to consider whether
it was desirable to carry the measure into effect or not. He
hoped the House would separate the provincial form from the
general element, at all events on a question of that kind, and
that the Government would retain in its own hand both the duty
and the power of seeing that this measure was properly and
efficiently carried out.

He conceived that it was of the very highest importance that
this should be done, because if any Provincial Council, either
owing to a want of funds or the unwillingness or prejudice of
the people, were to refuse to carry the Act into effect, the
whole Colony might be implicated in the disease; for example,
if they took one of those Provinces which was short of funds,
unable to meet its ordinary expenditure and to maintain its
Provincial establishments - a Province in that position would
not be likely to appropriate the funds required for the purposes
of this Act, particularly if the pressure of ignorance was
brought to bear upon the Provincial Council.

They knew that there were Provinces in this Colony in such a
state of miserable impecuniosity that they could not provide
the funds necessary for carrying this measure into effect. He
hoped that when the Bill passed through Committee the power of
carrying the measure into effect would be fully retained in the
hands of the General Government.

With regard to the penalties imposed, he did not think the parents
ought to have the option of paying forty shillings. He thought
the penalty should be a continuous penalty, payable from month
to month, until the parent had done that which was his duty
towards the whole State; for no person, by the payment of a penalty
of forty shillings, had a right to intrude his prejudices and
ignorance, to the detriment of the State, and at the risk of
involving the whole country in a serious disease. He should feel 
it his duty to move an amendment in Committee, making the penalty 
much more stringent in those cases.

There were many books published dealing with this subject, from
which honorable members might gain information of the highest
utility in regard to a measure of this kind - he referred
particularly to the 3rd edition of Dr AITKEN's work on the Science
and Practice of Medicine, in which the whole question of public
vaccination was admirably treated, and the necessity for enforcing
vaccination throughout the country clearly shown.

He thought honorable members would do well to study what was there
written: they would rise from the perusal of those papers
perfectly convinced that the popular prejudice with respect to
vaccination was due solely to ignorance.

Possibly there were instances in which disease had been propagated,
but this was not the result of proper vaccination. All that was
necessary was to see that those who were appointed to perform the
act of vaccination understood the duty they had to perform, and
it would devolve upon the Government to see that due care was
taken in that respect.

He did not think it was essential that the vaccinator should be a
medical man in practice. He believed that in England the whole
duty of carrying out the Act was left to the Privy Council, who
had power under the Act to make regulations for vaccination, and
they from time to time made such regulations.

He thought it would not be undesirable to introduce a provision
into the Bill, giving the Government power to form regulations from
time to time, similar to those introduced by the Privy Council in
England. In a Colony like this he did not see why lay persons
should not be appointed to carry out the provisions of the Act in
the scattered out-lying districts in which a medical man not be
actually resident.

The subject was of so much importance to the community that he
trusted the Government would not allow any feeling founded upon
a want of judgement, or prejudice, or ignorance, to weigh with
them for one moment in dealing with the question before the House.

Mr MERVYN trusted that the Government would accede to the suggestion
made by the honorable member for Wairarapa, and refer the Bill,
after the second reading, to a Select Committee. He could say from
personal experience that the Bill in its present form would be
absolutely unworkable in many parts of the country. They had had
public vaccinators appointed, but in some districts such was the
scarcity of medical men that people experienced the utmost
difficulty in getting a medical man to attend them in ordinary
cases. He trusted that the Government would accede to the suggestion,
so that the Bill might be made more perfect.

Mr GILLIES corroborated what had been said with respect to the
absolute necessity for some provision being made for carrying
out the Act in the country districts, and as to the unworkable
character of the present Bill. The Act was almost a reprint of
the English Act, a thing which he had observed in recent
legislation in the Colony had been too often the case, while
very sparing attempts were made to adapt them to the circumstances
of the Colony.

He could thoroughly support the principle of the measure, but he
thought with the honorable member for Christchurch that the Act
should be made compulsory, - that the power of controlling it
should be in the hands of the Government, and not left optional
with the Superintendents of the Provinces. It was only ignorance
and the want of an attentive study of the subject that could
induce any one to adopt any other opinion.

Mr RICHMOND suggested the advisability of having the report of
the Select Committee of the House of Commons on the subject of
vaccination printed and circulated in all parts of the country.
If the Bill were to be made compulsory, of course it was desirable
that the compulsion should be kept in the background as much as
possible.

However objectionable it might be to introduce provincial elements
into their Bills, it certainly did seem a most extraordinary thing
that they should, - in a matter of that kind, where they pretended
to make things compulsory, and where they imposed penalties on
individuals, - that they should have neglected to secure by the
Bill the facilities which it professed were given.

As had been correctly stated by the honorable member for the Bay
of Islands, the difficulty was one of money to a great extent. He
had seen the Act break down in one Province for want of means
which the Provincial Government were unwilling and perhaps not
very well able to afford; and it was really not a very easy matter
to obtain competent persons of the medical profession to undertake
the work, which to be done thoroughly required a great deal of time.

He agreed with the suggestion made by the honorable member for
Mongonui, that others than professional officers should be employed,
because, if the Provincial Governments were to be left to administer
the Act, it was necessary that there should be, as a corollary to
that, some compulsion upon them to carry it into effect.

The Bill as it stood at present used language of a more than usually
permissive character with respect to the Superintendents, for the
Governor was enjoined to appoint officers for the District of
Westland, and the Superintendents might appoint officers for the
several Provinces.

It was necessary for the Government to make election - either that
the thing was to be compulsory or not. If it were to be compulsory
they must go to the bottom of the matter, and compel the proper
administration of the Act.

Mr FOX, in reply, said he was glad to find that the House was
generally agreed as to the necessity if a compulsory Bill being
passed, and that the great objection to the present Bill was that
it was not sufficiently compulsory.

He was quite prepared to refer the Bill to a Select Committee.
He had intimated, on moving its second reading, that he was not
himself master of the details, which were of a peculiar and
technical character, and he had wished the assistance of those
honorable members who possessed more information on the subject,
but he thought that the Bill would be better considered by a Select
Committee.

He trusted that the fears of the honorable members of the North,
who had lately been discussing the question of the probability of
contagious diseases being transferred by defective vaccination,
were not very well founded, and he thought, if they investigated
the documents referred to by the honorable member for Christchurch,
their minds would be set at rest on that point.

With regard to the other objection, which he admitted had something
in it - the difficulty of enforcing the Act in outlying districts -
and of which they had heard so much, he to a certain extent
sympathized with that objection, but he thought it ought not to
be carried too far.

There was, he thought, an unwillingness on the part of the people
living in the out-districts to perform such duties as the one
sought to be imposed upon them. If the Bill were read a second
time he would consult honorable colleagues, and give notice of
motion for a Select Committee on the next day.

The Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be referred to
a Select Committee.